Curse

Dawn Godtreader · May 03, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

OK did some work on it and with my build: Golden phoenix strike, horn of the ox, falling spider, and twisting fangs. With 16 dagger mastery and 10 crit hits.

This is damage against the 100 armor outside the great temple of baalthazar

average damage for phoenix out of ten hits was 40 damage, same for each hit of horn, average damage for falling spider out of ten hits was 45 damage
and the average for each it of twisting is 27 damage. Thats normal hits not counting critical hits.
All together is is 219 damage against the 100 armor dummy.
Thats 6 hits with a damage per hit at 36.5 damage.
If each attack skill is 1.33 then thats 5.32 all together that makes my combo 41.16 damage per second
Critical hits. phoenix hit for 50 damage every crit, same with ox each hit, deadly did 55 and twisting did 36 each hit.
Thats 277 damage all together
46.16 DPH
52.0 DPS
both against the 100 al armor dummy

Thats not to mention the -96 health(armor has 480 health) from deep wound and the 14 damage per second after that (7 degen).

I'm gonna test on the lvl 60 Al dummy now

*shrugs* If this convo gets more complicated ill get a freind i can practice on. All this I'm doing is base damage, not considering anything else that can happen. Wars pwn in normal dps...but a assassins dps is nothing to scoff at though. This is the DPS for my combo so..I'm basically comparing my sin to wars.

fallot · May 03, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawn Godtreader

snip..

I dont think you understand how the term DPS is applied. This is a reflection of the damage dealt by a character over prolonged periods of time. You cant say that you are dealing 52.0 DPS with that combo. Assume that your combo recharges every hour, would you still have the same DPS ?

What you are looking for is spike, and this spike isn't too impressive.

DieInBasra · May 03, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Dawn, you're confuseing DPS and spike. DPS is damage that you're going to be doing for a long time, what you've just shown there was a spike. As well, a warrior does 100 less damage then you, but in 3 less seconds and with only two attack skills.

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If you weigh a realistic situation, YOU MUST HAVE CONDITIONS if your team is going to do anything.

No, you must have deep wound, and cripple is nice. Too bad iB didn't know that you need conditions to win before the seasonals. Who knows, maybe they could have gotten into the top 7?

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If you think only Dazed and Deep Wound kill, show me how you survive if your monks are stuffed, and you've got a VERY long lasting poison/bleeding duration on your hp bar... [and you've been fighting for a while already...]

Well yeah, I won't argue that if your monks are stuffed your going to die, but you'd die to everything. I gues if I was a warrior I'd healsig, and if I were an ele I'd pump HP's and if I were a ranger I'd Troll.

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DPS? Why would a sin want to do dps? lol... Sins just need to land a gigantic spike and thanks to double striking, why would they need an IAS? If you boost their Double Strikes by 50% or so [totally feasible with skill/elites], that means you're doing a 2x strike every other swing... Can Frenzy Match that? Hell no. At least while doing your 2x strikes, you're not eating double damage...

Because DPS is damage? And boosting Double strikes? One skill does that, and it's a 30 second recharge enchantment. Weak. And you only eat double damage if you're rush/sprint isn't charged. It's not like canceling frenzy is a big deal. I'll get to the needing IAS part in a sec.

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DPS isn't an issue if it's only 3 seconds... That's a spike. Real dps should be taken over a much longer period of time... 26 dps in 3s. is pathetic. 290 dps in 1 second? Hey, that's sexy damage buddy...

I know, I'm talking about the assassin's ability to spike- but the damage(twisting fangs) only comes after 3.99 seconds(three swings). That's why you need IAS. A warrior's spike comes at the begining, and takes 1.8 seconds, because they can use frenzy safetly.

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You can go ahead and say hexes / conditions are 'useless' since they will be countered. You fight my team using only raw damage and I'll fight yours using a strong blend of every disruption possibility in the book. This headbutt a wall with damage theory makes one sound dumber and dumber by the second... You fight without hexes/conditions, that's fine by me...

I never said hexes/conditions were useless, I said that condition stacking on one target was useless because it's negated by a 5energy spell with a two second recharge that's most likely on a character with 10 pips of energy. Nice try though.

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Sins just need to land a gigantic spike and thanks to double striking

"Gigantic" being about the same as a warrior-300?

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I would like to suggest that assassins are for fast spiking,

Unless you use one of the "Golden" offhands, or Palm strike, and have an IAS, your spike is going to be far from "fast".

Siren · May 04, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miakoda

"The gwonline.net assasin forum has a sticky thread with the above analysis. It looks reasonable and the conclusions may surprise some of the readers here."

Shame you have to register to even VIEW the thread.

[copy+paste pls]

I think this is what it was.

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(Part 1 of 3)

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Introduction
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Before the introduction of the Assassin class in GW:Prophecies, comparing the base damage per second (DPS) of the available melee and bow weapons was fairly straightforward. With the introduction of daggers and the Assassin class, however, comparing base weapon DPS becomes much less intuitive because of the following factors:

Base weapon DPS depends on the weapon speed, the weapon’s listed damage range, inherent EAL adjustments such as the 10% base AP for horn bows, the percent chance of crits, and the -20 AL GSM for crits.
Daggers, unlike other weapons, do not have one single speed. Instead, the speed varies depending on your ranks in Dagger Master, ranging from 1.33 seconds per attack at 0 ranks to 1.00 seconds per attack at 16 ranks in Dagger Mastery.
If you are an Assassin primary, the percentage chance of a critical hit (a “crit”) for all weapons is no longer dependent solely on your ranks in the corresponding weapon skill. It is now also affected by your ranks in Critical Strikes, and also by the “Critical Eye” skill.

The facts and derivations used in this FAQ are based on the following sources:

SonOfRah’s excellent Damage Article: http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=157#TDE
Deford’s post in the GWOnline Community forum that explains some inaccuracies in SonOfRah’s essay: http://forums.gwonline.net/showthrea...64#post4004064
Pan Sola’s post in the GWOnline Community forum that explains how the threshold for Baseline values is dependent on your character level: http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=378858

Also, I want to give thanks to Arredondo, BLAHHH, Bobross, Bravo, kate sullivan, ShadowKntSDS, Syes, TooBadUnknown, Viri, and zampani for their comments and explanations in my previous two versions of the Dagger FAQ (and related threads).

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Corrected Info in this Version of the FAQ
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I’ve replaced the Tables 4-6 in V3 of the FAQ with a single Table 4. In the previous FAQ, I overlooked two important details when calculating DPS for weapon mastery 16:
- I didn’t adjust the median damage for a 68 baseline.
- I overlooked the obvious fact that a NON-Assassin primary could not possibly get 34% or 40% crit chance because they wouldn’t have access to the Critical Strikes attribute.
- I overlooked the obvious fact that an Assassin primary could not possibly achieve 16 ranks in weapon mastery for axes, swords, hammers, and bows.
Based on the revised DPS tables, I also revised my previous conclusions about relative DPS between Assassin, Ranger, and Warrior primaries.
In the section on Dagger Speed, I’ve clarified the relationship of base “attack” speed to effective dagger speed and added a description of how IAS skills like Frenzy affect dagger speed.
In the section on Energy Regen, I’ve added a note that explains how the Critical Strike dual attack skill does indeed give you 2x the energy bonus for crits. I’ve also clarified the exact ranks in Critical Strikes at which you get the +1, +2, or +3 energy bonus.
I’ve made other miscellaneous clarifications here and there.

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The Auto-Attack DPS Tables
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The following tables show the sustained auto-attack DPS for all the melee/ranged weapons with various common attribute values. These DPS values are derived from the base weapon-specific factors in the total Damage Formula, which looks like this (I’m using Deford’s corrected version of SonOfRah’s formula):

Received Damage = (Victim’s Damage Enhancement) x [[(Attacker’s Damage Enhancement) x (Base Damage) x (Armor Modifier)] + (Bonus Damage)]

By weapon-specific factors, I mean the (Base Damage) portion of the formula, coupled with part of the (Armor Modifier) part of the formula. In particular, the (Armor Modifier) contains bits that relate to the -20 AL GSM modifier for critical hits, and also contains bits that relate to the effect of base AP% from Strength and for horn bows.

All of the other factors in the total damage formula will adjust this [b]base[/s] DPS value up or down. For example, a customized weapon (+20% damage enhancement) that also has the +15% damage enhancement when above 50% health both factor into the Attacker’s Damage Enhancement portion of the formula, so all other things being equal, you would increase any of my base DPS numbers by a flat +38% if you had these two mods on your weapon. That’s just one simple example. Regardless, the point is that the numbers I give are based on the weapon-specific factors that DO NOT CHANGE, so they are the best basis for comparison.

TIP: Since most people PvP with a customized 15/50 weapon, you can multiply each of the following DPS values by 1.38 to determine what the auto-attack DPS would be if you are wielding a customized 15/50 weapon.

The first three tables are based on these assumptions:

12 ranks in the corresponding weapon mastery skill. This what many will consider the optimum value, because even though Dagger speed continues to increase at 13 ranks and higher (thereby proportionally increasing DPS relative to other weapons), the improvements to the Baseline portion of the (Armor Modifier) are only 2 per rank instead of 5 per rank) AND you have less attribute points to spend in other useful areas. I will show a 5th table in a following section that compares the DPS at 16 ranks of weapon mastery.
13 ranks in Critical Strikes (for Assassin primaries). This is the optimum value due both to maximizing crit potential, but also to getting +3 energy back per crit because Assassin is an energy-hungry class.

Table 1: Base Weapon DPS for Assassin primaries, WITH Critical Eye running full-time (35% crit chance)
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Hammer Base DPS: 19.8
Axe Base DPS: 18.8
Sword Base DPS: 17.2
Dagger Base DPS: 15.1
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS: 14.0
Horn Bow Base DPS: 11.5
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS: 11.2

Table 2: Base Weapon DPS for Assassin primaries, WITHOUT Critical Eye (29% crit chance)
Code:

Hammer Base DPS: 19.1
Axe Base DPS: 17.8
Sword Base DPS: 16.6
Dagger Base DPS: 14.5
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS: 13.4
Horn Bow Base DPS: 11.0
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS: 10.7

Table 3: Base Weapon DPS for non-Assassin primaries with NO Critical Strikes attribute (16% crit chance)
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Hammer Base DPS: 17.4
Axe Base DPS: 15.5
Sword Base DPS: 15.4
Dagger Base DPS: 13.0
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS: 12.2
Horn Bow Base DPS: 10.1
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS: 9.8

The next three tables are for builds with 16 ranks in the relative weapon Mastery and 13 ranks in Critical Strikes. This is the optimum combination of attributes for a pure DPS dagger-based Assassin primary, because the additional 4 ranks in Dagger Mastery not only increases your Baseline and your chance of crits, but also increases the weapon speed of Daggers even more than 12 ranks, which increases the DPS for daggers proportionally more than for all other weapons. However, note that this leaves you with only 4 attribute points left over for other useful attributes, so this is a highly specialized build without much flexibility.

Table 4: Table 4: Base Weapon DPS for 16 ranks in weapon mastery

** Note: Hammer, Axe, and Sword values are possible ONLY for Warrior primaries. Dagger values are possible ONLY for Assassin primaries. Bow values are possible ONLY for Ranger primaries.
** Note: only Assassins can hit 40% crit rate or 34% crit rate. Non-assassins have no access to Critical Strikes and Critical Eye.

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Hammer Base DPS (21% crit): 20.8
Dagger Base DPS (40% crit): 19.5
Axe Base DPS (21% crit): 18.7
Dagger Base DPS (34% crit): 18.6
Sword Base DPS (21% crit): 18.3
Dagger Base DPS (21% crit): 16.8
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS (21% crit): 14.5
Horn Bow Base DPS (21% crit): 11.8
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS (21% crit): 11.6

One final note about relative DPS among the weapons. In general, faster weapons yield more reliable DPS in a short fight. In the time it takes to attack 3 times with a hammer, for example, your typical dagger-based Assassin primary can swing 5 times. If the Assassin gets blocked or evaded 20% of the time, that’s one attack that doesn’t connect. If the hammer user gets blocked or evaded 20% of the time, that’s one hammer attack that doesn’t connect, so the hammer user loses 33% of their damage, while the dagger user loses only 20% of their damage. Many other MMOGs have proved time and again that two weapons might have similar DPS when you do the math, but the faster weapon of the two is always the better choice.

This basic fact is mitigated somewhat by Guild Wars’ implementation of attack skills, but it’s still something to consider if you’re on the fence regarding, say, a decision between daggers and swords (both of which have very similar DPS values). A dagger is significantly faster than a sword at typical values for Dagger Mastery.

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Why Strength Is Not Applicable to DPS Comparisons
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In version 2 of this FAQ, I included tables that showed DPS values for Warrior primaries with 10 ranks in Strength. This was a poor choice because the 10% AP of Strength is applied only to attack skills, not to normal auto-attack damage. Therefore, trying to compare DPS over time for Warriors with Strength is a bad comparison; apples to oranges. Trying to calculate an improvement in overall damage output due to Strength is a tedious proposition.

As a rule of thumb, however, you can safely assume that running a Warrior with 10 ranks in Strength would add relatively little to the overall auto-attack DPS for a 16% critical chance (for 12 ranks in the corresponding weapon mastery) or for a 21% critical chance (for 16 ranks in weapon mastery). The overall DPS that 10 Strength will buy you certainly falls somewhere below the halfway mark between the auto-attack DPS values for 16% and 29% crit chance (for 12 ranks in mastery) or below the halfway mark between the auto-attack DPS values for 21% and 34% crit chance (for 16 ranks in mastery).

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Understanding Dagger Mastery and Dagger Speed
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The Dagger Mastery attribute works like all other weapon mastery attributes in that it affects your Baseline portion of the Armor Modifier:

12 ranks at character level 20 gives you a Baseline of 60. This is optimal.
For each rank below or equal to ((CharLevel / 2) + 2), add 5 to the Baseline.
For each rank above ((CharLevel /2) + 2), add 2 to the Baseline.

Dagger Mastery also works like all other weapon masteries in that it partiallyaffects your base chance to score a critical hit, to the tune of 1 + (1.25 x Attribute). Some examples:

16% at 12 ranks (1+[1.25 x 12] = 16)
12% at 9 ranks (1+[1.25 x 9] = 12.25)
21% at 16 ranks (1+[1.25 x 16] = 21)

The other factor to consider with crit chance % is the relative level of you versus your opponent. If you are exactly the same level, the preceding numbers apply, but if you above or below your opponent’s level, the preceding numbers double or halve every 5 levels in difference, as follows:

For every 5 levels you are above your opponent, your crit chance doubles. For example, if you are level 20, with 12 ranks in your weapon mastery, and your opponent is level 15, your base crit chance is 32%. If your opponent is level 10, your base crit chance is 64%, etc.
For every 5 levels you are below your opponent, your crit chance halves. For example, if you are level 15, with 12 ranks in weapon mastery, and your opponent is 20, your crit chance is 8%.

Where Dagger Mastery does not work like the other weapon masteries is that it also affects the effective speed of your Daggers. The base Dagger speed (the “attack speed”) is the same as swords and axes (1.33 seconds per attack). But for each rank of Dagger Mastery, you also get a 2% chance to strike twice in one attack. If you have 12 ranks in Dagger Mastery, you have a 24% chance on any given attack to strike twice. On average, then, every 100 attacks will yield 124 strikes, which equates to a 24% increase in effective weapon speed.

So a simple formula for determining your effective dagger speed is this:

Dagger Speed = base speed / [1 + (Attribute x .02)]

Some examples, assuming a base speed of 1.33:

9 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.13 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.18)
12 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.07 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.24)
16 ranks in Dagger Mastery = 1.00 seconds per attack (1.33 / 1.32)

Now, before you walk away thinking “with a Dagger speed of 1.00 I’ll be more effective at interrupts”, remember that the base “attack speed” or “swing speed” of a dagger is still 1.33 seconds, just like swords and axes. Keep this in mind when planning a build—your dagger will not actually be attacking once every 1.07 or 1.00 seconds.

NOTE: At this time (pre-Factions), it is not known precisely what happens when a double-strike occurs. One possibility is that you actually “attack” just once at base speed of 1.33 and the two “damage rolls” are just applied at the beginning of the 1.33-second attack interval. So your attack speed never varies from 1.33-second intervals. A second possibility, however, is that when a double-strike occurs, the normal attack interval of 1.33 seconds actually becomes two separate attacks, each taking half of that normal base interval. If this is the case, it fundamentally affects your chance of interrupting the target during a double-strike, because you might be making two separate attacks in that 1.33 second interval. We will not be able to determine which is the case until after Factions comes out.

Why is knowing the effective speed of your dagger important? One obvious reason is that it affects your overall DPS, with faster speeds meaning more DPS than slower speeds. This is why daggers benefit more from ranks 13 – 16 in mastery than all other weapons do.

One point of confusion is how IAS skills like Frenzy are applied to Dagger speed. You must always apply the IAS skill to the base speed (1.33). The resulting new base speed is then used in the preceding formula to calculate your new effective speed.

A less obvious reason is that dagger speed also affects the rate at which you regen energy from your Critical Strikes attribute and from your Critical Eye skill. Which leads us to the next section…

Siren · May 04, 2006, 04:17 AM // 04:17

I feel lousy about double-posting here, but I'm not sure if it'd allow me to combine lots of text like this.

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Comparing Assassin Spike Damage Versus Other Classes
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There has been much argument over whether Assassins can equal the damage output of Rangers or Warriors, especially in terms of “spike” damage. I have even argued in the past that dagger spike output is probably considerably less than for other weapons. This might not actually be the case, however.

Spike damage output has two components:

How much damage you can pile on in one combo skill chain
How rapidly the combo chain recharges so that you can apply it again

People look at the big damage bonuses on some Axe and Hammer skills, for example, which are literally twice the amount of most Dagger skills, and they conclude that obviously, Dagger spike damage output is inferior to what you can achieve with Warrior weapons. What is less obvious is that the three different types of dagger attacks can be very rapidly spammed, compared to most non-dagger skills which require rage to regenerate after each attack in the combo chain.

I don’t have the stamina to perform an exhaustive analysis of dagger spike combos versus non-dagger spike combos, but I will point out the simple fact that you can instantly chain-cast a Lead attack and an Off-Hand attack as fast as you can press your hotkeys, and if you add up the damage bonus on most Lead and Off-Hand attacks, the cumulative damage bonus is roughly equal to the big damage bonuses you see on a single axe or hammer attack.

I’ll also point out the fact that a Dual attack strikes twice. That means the damage bonus is also applied twice. So you are getting 2x the normal “auto-attack” damage (with crit potential) AND you are getting 2x the listed bonus. That can equate to some hefty damage from some Dual attacks, to rival anything Axes and Hammers have.

My hunch, therefore, is that Assassin primaries can devise damage combos that can come very close to, or even exceed, the single-instance spike damage of Warrior or Ranger primaries.

My other hunch is that Assassin primaries can NOT equal the sustained spike output of Warriors or Rangers unless the Assassin invests heavily in Critical Strikes and tries to fit Critical Eye into their build, in order to maximize their total energy regen rate to 5 pips or better. The reason I suspect this requirement is necessary for sustained spike output is because all the Assassin skills are very energy-hungry. To repeat your spike combos as often as they recharge requires a lot of energy.

I would love it somebody could post a comprehensive analysis of spike damage, both in one instance and sustained over time, between Assassins and other classes. This is an area that still needs investigation.

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(Part 3 of 3)

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Conclusions
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Some interesting conclusions can be drawn from the information in the preceding sections. Some of these conclusions are simple facts, while others are subjective interpretations of my own. Your interpretations might be different, or you might reach some useful conclusions that I didn’t think of. Please share your interpretations in replies to this thread for everyone’s benefit.

Note: Where I mention “DPS” in the following list, I’m talking only about the base auto-attack DPS provided by your normal weapon attacks. Total DPS is dependent on the other skills you use in combat.

For builds that run 12 ranks in the relevant weapon mastery, an Assassin primary can do more DPS with hammers, axes, swords, and bows than any Warrior or Ranger primary with those same weapons. This makes obvious sense because Assassin primaries have access to a higher crit chance, which equals more DPS.
For builds that run 16 ranks in the relevant weapon mastery, however, a Warrior primary can do more DPS with hammers and swords (but less DPS with Axes) than an Assassin primary could do with those same weapons. Likewise, a Ranger primary can do more DPS with bows than an Assassin primary could.
When comparing the DPS of daggers to all other weapons:
- At 12 ranks in the relevant weapon mastery, Dagger DPS for an Assassin primary is less than Hammer, Axe, and Sword DPS for a Warrior primary if the Assassin is not running Critical Eye. With Critical Eye running, however, Dagger DPS can come very close to the DPS of Axes and Swords., but almost equal with Axe and Sword DPS for a Warrior primary. Compared to Ranger primaries, however, Dagger DPS is higher than bow DPS across the board regardless of Crit chance.
- At 16 ranks in the relevant weapon mastery, Dagger DPS for an Assassin primary is less than Hammer DPS for a Warrior primary, but roughly equal to Axe and Sword DPS if the Assassin is not running Critical Eye. With Critical Eye running, however, Dagger DPS is much higher than Axes and Swords. Compared to Ranger primaries, however, Dagger DPS is higher than bow DPS across the board regardless of Crit chance.
- Dagger DPS for a 12-rank Assassin primary is higher than Bow DPS for a 16-rank Ranger primary for every bow type except Horn Bows. For Horn Bows, 13 ranks in Critical Strikes makes Dagger DPS equal with Horn Bow DPS, and running Critical Eye makes Dagger DPS higher than Horn Bow DPS.
Players considering an A/W build that does *not* use Dagger weapons should ask themselves whether giving up high physical AL (from Warrior armor and Shield) is worth the access to higher weapon DPS, tactical teleport and shutdown skills, and +2 to +6.8 pips of additional energy regen. If the energy regen rate is an important factor, you can get +2 pips of regen “for free” just by dint of having Assassin armor, but to get +6.8 additional pips of regen, you’ll need to put a lot of points into Critical Strikes and plan to use Critical Eye in your build. The loss of Strength-related DPS should not even be a factor in your decision, as it is a minimal loss.
Players considering an A/Ra build should ask themselves whether giving up 30 elemental AL (from Ranger Armor) and giving up the front-loaded energy-efficiency of Expertise is worth the access to higher weapon DPS, tactical teleport and shutdown skills, and +1 to +5.8 pips of additional back-loaded energy regen. Many high-Expertise Ranger primary builds that rely on skills that benefit from Expertise are probably more energy-efficient than anything you could do with an A/Ra build. IMO if you like the combination of Ranger and Assassin skills, I’d look carefully at Ra/A builds first.
Players who are concerned about spike damage should remember that they need to look at how fast they can pull off a 2- to 5-part dagger combo, and how often they can repeat it, versus pulling off their favorite non-dagger combo. Remember to add up all the seemingly small damage bonuses on those dagger attacks, and remember that dual attacks always strike twice for 2x the normal and 2x bonus damage. IMO the spike output of a dagger-based Assassin primary can at least equal, if not exceed, most Warrior or Ranger primary classes. There’s a reason we’re more squishy than both warriors and rangers.

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My Personal Observations From The Factions Preview Event
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During FPE, I mostly played an A/Mo that had no points in Monk attributes, and only one Monk skill on the toolbar (Rebirth). I did this because I wanted to see how a mostly “pure” Assassin would perform.

Even though I was at level 20, I had only 9 ranks in Dagger Mastery for most of my builds, which provided a less-than-optimal Base Value for my overall DPS, not to mention a less-than-optimal dagger speed and crit chance. I did this because I was heavily testing higher values in Shadow Arts and Deadly Arts and didn’t want to take away from my Critical Strikes value of 12 ranks. (And note that with CS of 12, I was getting an energy bonus of only 2 per crit).

Despite my low baseline and my lower-than-optimal energy bonus from crits, I STILL tore up foes and performed very well as a tank in PvE quests with a mostly-henchman party (and my wife as the only other PC). I would usually charge in first, not even bothering to send my henchmen in first to take the heat. I did all the target calling, and I certainly took a lot of the initial “alpha” onslaught from each new group of foes.

I rarely died, even when performing this role that an Assassin was not designed for. And even with mostly dim-witted henchmen in the party.

What I found is that you can be QUITE survivable as a pure Assassin even when charging in first, because you have so many nice self-healing, damage mitigation, and teleport tactics available to you. So my advice regarding your secondary class if you want to play an assassin primary is:

If you solo or duo with one partner (with the rest of the group composed of henchment) and your focus is mostly PvE exploration and questing, then go with a Monk or Ritualist secondary, don't waste any attribute points on Monk or Ritualist attributes, and just keep one reusable rez (Rebirth or Flesh of My Flesh) on your toolbar. You'll still rock as a meleer, but you'll be able to recover the team from the many deaths than tend to occur during PvE missions.
If your focus is mostly PvE but you regularly team with large groups of real players so you don't need a repeatable rez, then go with an A/W build if you enjoy having many options for tactical melee fighting. You'll be able to use every melee weapon and its associated skills as suits your mood. Some people might think that an A/Ra or an Ra/A is fun and useful, but IMO, the main strength (and fun!) of an Assassin is tactical mobility to get in and out on certain targets, and Rangers don't need that ability.
If your focus is mostly PvP, look for any secondary that gives you nice spike combos and still leaves room for some shadow-stepping tactical skills. For example, A/Me is particularly nice with Mantra of Signets > Palm Strike > Blinding Powder > Signet of Shadows > Signet of Shadows for a 200-point opening damage spike, which you can follow 12 seconds later with Palm Strike > Repeated Strike and just keep spamming Repeated Strike till you run out of energy or Repeated Strike finally misses. This leaves you two slots for nice Assassin utility skills.

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OTHER USEFUL INFO AND DERIVATIONS ==================================================

Axes, Swords, and Daggers all have a base weapon speed of 1.33 seconds per strike. (But Dagger Mastery effectively increases the weapon speed of daggers as described in a preceding section.)
Hammers have a weapon speed of 1.75 seconds per strike.
Bows have a weapon speed of 2.0 (short/flat), 2.5 (long/comp), and 2.7 (horn) seconds per strike.
Horn bows have a base armor penetration (AP) of 10%.
Strength confers a base AP of 1% per rank in Strength.
Base damage per strike for all weapon types is calculated the same way.
The base weapon damage number used in damage calculations is ALWAYS a random value from the weapon's listed damage range. (You do not use higher values from the range as your corresponding weapon skill increases; instead, your damage is greater because of the relative level of your weapon skill versus the target's AL and other defensive attributes.)
Critical hits always use the maximum value of the weapon's damage range and the target's EAL value is reduced by -20 AL GSM; other than those two exceptions, critical damage is calculated like normal damage. (So crits do not ignore armor or do double-damage or ignore relative attack/defense levels, etc. as they do in other MMOGs.)
SonOfRah’s explanation of positional damage and shield positional defense is no longer correct. Shield AL is applied from all sides when attacked. The same damage is incurred no matter what positional facing you use during attacks. (This info isn’t directly relevant to this Dagger FAQ, but it’s good info discovered by Deford that I want to make sure gets passed around.

Using all the facts from this and preceding sections, we can make the following derivations, based on SonOfRah’s damage formulas:

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THE FOLLOWING DERIVATIONS ARE ALL BASED ON A WEAPON SKILL OF 12 RANKS
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Critical Damage Modifier (-20 AL): 2^[[60-(60-20)]/40] = 1.4142
Horn Bow Median Damage Modifier (10% AP): 2^[[60-(60x0.9)]/40] = 1.1096
Horn Bow Crit Dam Modifier (10% AP, -20 AL): 2^[[60-([60x0.9]-20)]/40] = 1.5692

Hammer Damage Range: 19-35
Hammer Median Damage: 27 ( 19 + [[35 - 19] / 2] )
Hammer Critical Damage: 49 ( 35 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
Hammer DPS (35% crit): 19.8 ( [[27 * .65] + [49 * .35]] / 1.75 )
Hammer DPS (29% crit): 19.1 ( [[27 * .71] + [49 * .29]] / 1.75 )
Hammer DPS (16% crit): 17.4 ( [[27 * .84] + [49 * .16]] / 1.75 )

Axe Damage Range: 6-28
Axe Median Damage: 17 ( 6 + [[28 - 6] / 2] )
Axe Critical Damage: 40 ( 28 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
Axe DPS (35% crit): 18.8 ( [[17 * .65] + [40 * .35]] / 1.33 )
Axe DPS (29% crit): 17.8 ( [[17 * .71] + [40 * .29]] / 1.33 )
Axe DPS (16% crit): 15.5 ( [[17 * .84] + [40 * .16]] / 1.33 )

Sword Damage Range: 15-22
Sword Median Damage: 18.5 ( 15 + [[22 - 15] / 2] )
Sword Critical Damage: 31 ( 22 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
Sword DPS (35% crit): 17.2 ( [[18.5 * .65] + [31 * .35]] / 1.33 )
Sword DPS (29% crit): 16.6 ( [[18.5 * .71] + [31 * .29]] / 1.33 )
Sword DPS (16% crit): 15.4 ( [[18.5 * .84] + [31 * .16]] / 1.33 )

Dagger Damage Range: 7-17
Dagger Median Damage: 12 ( 7 + [[17 - 7] / 2] )
Dagger Critical Damage: 24 ( 17 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
Dagger DPS (35% crit): 15.1 ( [[12 * .65] + [24 * .35]] / 1.07 )
Dagger DPS (29% crit): 14.5 ( [[12 * .71] + [24 * .29]] / 1.07 )
Dagger DPS (16% crit): 13.0 ( [[12 * .84] + [24 * .16]] / 1.07 )

Bow Damage Range: 15-28
Bow Median Damage: 21.5 ( 15 + [[28 - 15] / 2] )
Bow Critical Damage: 40 ( 28 * 1.4142 ) ! -20 AL base
Horn Bow Median Damage: 24 ( 21.5 * 1.1096 ) ! 10% AP
Horn Bow Critical Damage: 44 ( 28 * 1.5692 ) ! -20 AL and 10% AP

Sht/Flt Bow DPS (35% crit): 14.0 ( [[21.5 * .65] + [40 * .35]] / 2.0 )
Horn Bow DPS (35% crit): 11.5 ( [[24 * .65] + [44 * .35]] / 2.7 )
Lng/Cmp Bow DPS (35% crit): 11.2 ( [[21.5 * .65] + [40 * .35]] / 2.5 )

Sht/Flt Bow DPS (29% crit): 13.4 ( [[21.5 * .71] + [40 * .29]] / 2.0 )
Horn Bow DPS (29% crit): 11.0 ( [[24 * .71] + [44 * .29]] / 2.7 )
Lng/Cmp Bow DPS (29% crit): 10.7 ( [[21.5 * .71] + [40 * .29]] / 2.5 )

Sht/Flt Bow DPS (16% crit): 12.2 ( [[21.5 * .84] + [40 * .16]] / 2.0 )
Horn Bow DPS (16% crit): 10.1 ( [[24 * .84] + [44 * .16]] / 2.7 )
Lng/Cmp Bow DPS (16% crit): 9.8 ( [[21.5 * .84] + [40 * .16]] / 2.5 )

================================================== ===================
THE FOLLOWING DERIVATIONS ARE ALL BASED ON A WEAPON SKILL OF 16 RANKS
================================================== ===================

** Only Daggers can achieve 40% and 34% crit values!!!

Median Damage Modifier (68 baseline): 2^[[68-(60- 0)]/40] = 1.1486
Critical Damage Modifier (-20 AL): 2^[[68-(60-20)]/40] = 1.6245
Horn Bow Median Damage Modifier (10% AP): 2^[[68-(60x0.9)]/40] = 1.2745
Horn Bow Crit Dam Modifier (10% AP, -20 AL): 2^[[68-([60x0.9]-20)]/40] = 1.8025

Hammer Median Damage: 31 ( 27 * 1.1486)
Hammer Critical Damage: 57 ( 35 * 1.6245 ) ! -20 AL base
Hammer DPS (21% crit): 20.8 ( [[31 * .79] + [57 * .21]] / 1.75 )

Axe Median Damage: 19.5 ( 17 * 1.1486)
Axe Critical Damage: 45 ( 28 * 1.6245 ) ! -20 AL base
Axe DPS (21% crit): 18.7 ( [[19.5 * .79] + [45 * .21]] / 1.33 )

Sword Median Damage: 21.2 ( 18.5 * 1.1486)
Sword Critical Damage: 36 ( 22 * 1.6245 ) ! -20 AL base
Sword DPS (21% crit): 18.3 ( [[21.2 * .79] + [36 * .21]] / 1.33 )

Dagger Median Damage: 13.8 ( 12 * 1.1486)
Dagger Critical Damage: 28 ( 17 * 1.6245 ) ! -20 AL base
Dagger DPS (40% crit): 19.5 ( [[13.8 * .60] + [28 * .40]] / 1.00 )
Dagger DPS (34% crit): 18.6 ( [[13.8 * .66] + [28 * .34]] / 1.00 )
Dagger DPS (21% crit): 16.8 ( [[13.8 * .79] + [28 * .21]] / 1.00 )

Bow Median Damage: 24.7 ( 21.5 * 1.1486)
Bow Critical Damage: 45 ( 28 * 1.6245 ) ! -20 AL base
Horn Bow Median Damage: 27 ( 21.5 * 1.2745 ) ! 10% AP
Horn Bow Critical Damage: 50 ( 28 * 1.8025 ) ! -20 AL and 10% AP

Sht/Flt Bow DPS (21% crit): 14.5 ( [[24.7 * .79] + [45 * .21]] / 2.0 )
Horn Bow DPS (21% crit): 11.8 ( [[27 * .79] + [50 * .21]] / 2.7 )

Lng/Cmp Bow DPS (21% crit): 11.6 ( [[24.7 * .79] + [45 * .21]] / 2.5 )

glountz · May 04, 2006, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Your numbers differ from Ensign's ones in his post "why nuking sux".
Anyway, the guy is basically saying that a sin has less or equal DPS than a warr, even at 16 Dagg mastery and 13 Criticals (I don't take Critical eye into account, it's a skill, and warrs have skills too to raise significantly their damage).
His assumption on "best spike" is not proven.
...
...
...
I'm terribly disapointed.
Sins don't hurt more than warrs.
Bleh.

fallot · May 04, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Your numbers differ from Ensign's ones in his post "why nuking sux".
Anyway, the guy is basically saying that a sin has less or equal DPS than a warr, even at 16 Dagg mastery and 13 Criticals (I don't take Critical eye into account, it's a skill, and warrs have skills too to raise significantly their damage).

Consider also that these figures are obtained versus dummies and that an Assassin is not able to apply this DPS half as well as a warrior.

Yukito Kunisaki · May 04, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

I know, I'm talking about the assassin's ability to spike- but the damage(twisting fangs) only comes after 3.99 seconds(three swings). That's why you need IAS. A warrior's spike comes at the begining, and takes 1.8 seconds, because they can use frenzy safetly.

You can't do a spike at the beginning. You need to land 8 hits before you can do anything... Unless there's a no adrenaline skill with a warrior that I'm unaware of...

Sins can spike faster and easier than any warrior. Easy reason: No adrenaline needed.

When warriors can deal 60% hp worth of damage without using adrenaline, then I'd say they beat Assassins hands down, but as far as a place to fight in goes, sins do it their way very well...

DieInBasra · May 04, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Um, faster like sooner, which isn't all that great. I'm talking about how slow the actual spike comes, or at least the spike on that assassin Laser Light threw out. The Evis(meat of the damage) comes at the begining of a warr's spike, but the Twisting Fangs(meat of the assassin's damage) comes at the end. A Golden offhand-Twisting Fangs spike isn't half bad, but it's still quite a bit less damage.

A warrior useing Evis-Exe has a 75% chance to deal full spike damage, and a 50% chance to deal deep wound+damage, but not full spike damage. An Assassin has an 87.5% chance with a three hit combo to deal full spike damage, and has an 87.5% chance to deal deep wound+damage. (vs a 50% miss like Ageis, WvM and Gaurdian).
The fact that their chains can be so easily messed up, and that they have a low chance of getting the deep wound through almost any blocking, and that you see the damage coming 3.99 seconds before it does makes their spike weak, imo.

Quote:

When warriors can deal 60% hp worth of damage without using adrenaline,

With frenzy they can do 159.6 damage without any other skills in the same time it takes an assassin to spike with skills. I think that's pretty good, actually.

Katari · May 05, 2006, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

You can't do a spike at the beginning. You need to land 8 hits before you can do anything... Unless there's a no adrenaline skill with a warrior that I'm unaware of...

Sins can spike faster and easier than any warrior. Easy reason: No adrenaline needed.

When warriors can deal 60% hp worth of damage without using adrenaline, then I'd say they beat Assassins hands down, but as far as a place to fight in goes, sins do it their way very well...

In a PvP-match that dosen't matter. you gain adrenaline by beating on some off-target first. In a PvE battle it still dosen't matter, since spike damage isn't as important.

Bio-Hazard888 · May 05, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

I go lead w/ short recharge offhand short recharge REPEATING STIKE till i miss or have gotten about four off death blossom dead if thats not sudden enough you need to learn at least a little patience (that takes about 10 seconds)

Sidrakket · May 05, 2006, 02:09 AM // 02:09

why not have the assassin knockdown/dazeinterupt some other caster while the warriors are spikeing something? it can happen simultaniously and out of nowhere thanks to to shadowsteping

Digital Bath · May 05, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Jesus tapdancing christ! I am beginning to think that Warriors are like this in every freaking MMO game. The game introduces or has another melee dps class and all the warriors get threatened about their epeens and start /flexing.

Assassins are made to get in, get the annoying caster class, decimate them, then get out. Assassin....assassinate....in and out fast and stealth like. Assassins are also useful in picking out the lowest HP target and proceeding to poke em to death.

If you are used to standing in one place and tanking/attacking a target, then good for you, and this isn't the class for you. If you like pretending to be some kind of Legolas and sniping people off, then good for you, this isn't the class for you either. Now, if you prefer to be the kinda of sneaky, backstabbing class that is twitchy to play, this is the class for you. If you are anything but the last class type, then good for you but go back and troll your own forums. We know you love being that and we know you love to hate on the assassin class, it happens in every freaking game. Just give it a rest already.

Oh, and for you warriors. If you continue to preach on how "godly" you are, you can expect some hardcore nerfs to your damage. Look at previous games as examples. Warriors bring up valid reasons why they are so powerful, and what do the game designers do? They nerf them back down and make them worse and buggier to play. Remember, if you find a good farming spot you don't post it on the forums because it inevitably gets hit with the nerf bat.

fallot · May 05, 2006, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digital Bath

Assassins are made to get in, get the annoying caster class, decimate them, then get out. Assassin....assassinate....in and out fast and stealth like. Assassins are also useful in picking out the lowest HP target and proceeding to poke em to death.

I would advise you to read the entire thread. There have been many intelligent points brought up, and you insult our collective intelligence by ignoring them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digital Bath

Now, if you prefer to be the kinda of sneaky, backstabbing class that is twitchy to play, this is the class for you.

Perhaps this is correct from a roleplaying perspective, but the point of this thread has been that the primary Assassin is not capable of what it is advertised as.

Jornac · May 05, 2006, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Assassins, dont have much armor.
If they miss, their combo is interupted.
Their daggers, do less damage per normal hit than an ax or hammer against similar armor.
In a head to head fight, the only way an assassin could win, is by running away a lot.
A person with a hammer, would just keep knocking the assassin down. Weakness would further hamper the assassins already meager damage. A combo is likely to be interupted.

A well rounded character with an ax, would pack low adrenaline attacks, and a good energy attack. The MASSIVE amounts of damage that an ax does, would rip apart any assassin, and the rag armor that he wears. Not to mention, the Axers shield, will also further reduce, the assassins scratching.
---

If a warrior and an assassin were to be told, "you are going head to head" The warrior would most definetly win, if it could prepare specifically for the assassin.

If the warrior and the assassin are good well rounded PVP players, and they just so happen to go at each other 1 v 1. The warrior should win, almost everytime.

If the warrior is anti-caster or something stupid, his chance of losing that fight goes up.

If the warrior is away from his computer, he will probably lose.

glountz · May 05, 2006, 09:08 AM // 09:08

You can't discuss balance issue only on 1v1 match, it's flawed.
Seriously I'm disppointed.
I hoped really that sins would outdamage without any problems the warriors to counter their crap armor. Their "mobility" means nothing to me, as you have only 8 skill slots and the recharges on teleport skills are simply insane.
What I see is that base damage of daggers MUST be changed. Hey, it takes both your hands.
Instead of 7-17, make them 6-22. As assassins do more criticals than anybody else, it would boost their DPS as well as their spike with this high max damage value.

fallot · May 05, 2006, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I hoped really that sins would outdamage without any problems the warriors to counter their crap armor. Their "mobility" means nothing to me, as you have only 8 skill slots and the recharges on teleport skills are simply insane.
What I see is that base damage of daggers MUST be changed. Hey, it takes both your hands.
Instead of 7-17, make them 6-22. As assassins do more criticals than anybody else, it would boost their DPS as well as their spike with this high max damage value.

The base damage of daggers is ok, the + damage on attack skills needs to be larger. Enough for an Assassin to accomplish what everyone seems to expect of this profession. As far as the teleports go, Aura of Displacement is excellent and allows you to go both in and out. However, it can be used equally effectively by any non-assassin. I propose that it should be linked to critical strikes and have a chance of failure at Critical Strikes < 5

These changes would make the profession able to tele in, unload a combo and get out effectively. At the moment they may as well be charging to their deaths. Some IAS to get those combos off would be lovely too, Tiger's Fury, Frenzy and Flurry aren't the best options.

Digital Bath · May 05, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

I would advise you to read the entire thread. There have been many intelligent points brought up, and you insult our collective intelligence by ignoring them.

Perhaps this is correct from a roleplaying perspective, but the point of this thread has been that the primary Assassin is not capable of what it is advertised as.

I have read most of the thread, so don't be a pompous presumtious ass. At least half the thread is a flame fest for why assassins suck, and not valid points. There are opinions, lots of opinions, but how much hard data? The hard data is there and if you can't interpert it, then that's your deal and don't contaminate MY intelligence with your ignorance.

And if you don't think that they are capable of dealing damage, then I don't know what you are smoking and selling. If you aren't smart enough to get in and out without dieing that's one thing, but don't claim that assassins can't deal damage when they can. If you are going to compare pve to pvp, then compare it to group pvp. This game was not based around 1v1, it was based around group pvp. Honestly, how hard is it to avoid a warrior in group pvp if you are porting everywhere unless the whole team is warriors....and even if that's is the case your cripple and blind them then let your teammates finish em off.

fallot · May 05, 2006, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digital Bath

I have read most of the thread, so don't be a pompous presumtious ass. At least half the thread is a flame fest for why assassins suck, and not valid points. There are opinions, lots of opinions, but how much hard data? The hard data is there and if you can't interpert it, then that's your deal and don't contaminate MY intelligence with your ignorance.

There are valid points abound. There is hard data just a few posts back, and I am considering it with every statement that I make.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digital Bath

And if you don't think that they are capable of dealing damage, then I don't know what you are smoking and selling. If you aren't smart enough to get in and out without dieing that's one thing, but don't claim that assassins can't deal damage when they can. If you are going to compare pve to pvp, then compare it to group pvp. This game was not based around 1v1, it was based around group pvp. Honestly, how hard is it to avoid a warrior in group pvp if you are porting everywhere unless the whole team is warriors....and even if that's is the case your cripple and blind them then let your teammates finish em off.

I always try to talk from a group PvP perspective where it is appropriate. In 8v8, the assassin is a poor source of damage, and perhaps a reasonable spike since they can apply deep wound. However, their combos are slow without IAS and over time their damage is horribly inferior to that of a warrior. They have potentially good DPS if they had the durability to actually be hitting things.

Honestly, I dont know where you got the whole 1v1 thing from. This thread is not a comparison between who would win in a Warrior vs. Assassin fight, rather a discussion into whether an Assassin can be an effective character or just an ineffectual version of a warrior. With some exceptions, I am more or less inclined towards the latter. If primary assassins offer anything, it is not damage. I'm also wary of other skills that they offer, since I feel that they could just as easily be put on secondary assassins i.e characters who are already dedicated spell casters.

What do you think damage is anyway ? A spike every 30 seconds is not damage, since its being applied in easy to handle packets. If you manage to kill a target, thats great, if you didnt then you basically didn't do anything.

If the target survives, he will instantly be healed. Therefore what you have accomplished is a dent in the monk's energy. However, if your followup comes so late that the monk manages to recoup that energy you have made no impact on the opposing team. Now if you are hitting a target constantly, you are constantly provoking a reaction, thats damage. And Assassins cant do it, because their poor AL restricts them from hitting a target consistently.

Since its not Assassin vs. Warriors, I cant understand why you'd say that it isn't difficult to avoid warriors. This isn't even being discussed. That is why I asked you to read the thread.

-Assasins are unable to apply DPS due to poor armor
-They have poor spike, since it involves them moving into front lines (whether they do that by teleportation or running in is meaningless). Additionally the spike is slow due to lack of IAS
-Their ability to apply conditions to a single target is worthless, because conditions are powerful when they spread, with the exception of a few key ones.
-Their ability to teleport is a good tactical mechanic, but is not exlusive to primary Assassins due to these abilities being either unlinked or linked to an attribute available to all */As

Digital Bath · May 05, 2006, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

There are valid points abound. There is hard data just a few posts back, and I am considering it with every statement that I make.

I always try to talk from a group PvP perspective where it is appropriate. In 8v8, the assassin is a poor source of damage, and perhaps a reasonable spike since they can apply deep wound. However, their combos are slow without IAS and over time their damage is horribly inferior to that of a warrior. They have potentially good DPS if they had the durability to actually be hitting things.

Honestly, I dont know where you got the whole 1v1 thing from. This thread is not a comparison between who would win in a Warrior vs. Assassin fight, rather a discussion into whether an Assassin can be an effective character or just an ineffectual version of a warrior. With some exceptions, I am more or less inclined towards the latter. If primary assassins offer anything, it is not damage. I'm also wary of other skills that they offer, since I feel that they could just as easily be put on secondary assassins i.e characters who are already dedicated spell casters.

What do you think damage is anyway ? A spike every 30 seconds is not damage, since its being applied in easy to handle packets. If you manage to kill a target, thats great, if you didnt then you basically didn't do anything.

If the target survives, he will instantly be healed. Therefore what you have accomplished is a dent in the monk's energy. However, if your followup comes so late that the monk manages to recoup that energy you have made no impact on the opposing team. Now if you are hitting a target constantly, you are constantly provoking a reaction, thats damage. And Assassins cant do it, because their poor AL restricts them from hitting a target consistently.

Since its not Assassin vs. Warriors, I cant understand why you'd say that it isn't difficult to avoid warriors. This isn't even being discussed. That is why I asked you to read the thread.

-Assasins are unable to apply DPS due to poor armor
-They have poor spike, since it involves them moving into front lines (whether they do that by teleportation or running in is meaningless). Additionally the spike is slow due to lack of IAS
-Their ability to apply conditions to a single target is worthless, because conditions are powerful when they spread, with the exception of a few key ones.
-Their ability to teleport is a good tactical mechanic, but is not exlusive to primary Assassins due to these abilities being either unlinked or linked to an attribute available to all */As

And, again, I did read the thread and the common trend other than "assassins are teh suck" is that it is all coming down to assassin vs warrior, whether it be in terms of damage or otherwise.

Assassins, cannot and should not, have better armor. That is the way of the class. They are made for high burst damage not for what everyone else is used to (sitting there slashing/hammering away while being healed). The armor they are designed with is fine, as are most of the mods associated with them. If you were to give assassins more armor it would be unbalancing towards the whole game. You DON'T need mini-tanks that can teleport if they need to or use any of the other tricks assassin type classes are known to have. Assassins can do almost, if not all, conditions already through their combos; we don't need them sitting there being able to be healed the whole time and continuously popping out these combos (given they land). Anyway, if you choose to ignore those opinions, go check out other games and see where the assassin/rogue/theif armor ranks amongst the melee classes. Also, check what is the primary attribute for assassins (read: dexterity/agility). No, we don't have that in GW, but I am going on the assumption that the designers had this concept of the assassin in mind. A tweaking of adding evasion to the armor (as I read on another site) is actually a good idea, though I don't see it happening. Even 5% dodge would be huge.

Have you played any other game other than this one? Occupying a healer in any way is a viable tactic, whether it be direct assault on the healer or indirect assault on one of the lesser armored healer's friends. You are thinking very lineraly, try thinking outside the box. A healer with lesser energy = less efficient heals = panic ensuing. There is nothing that gets to a healer more than seeing a red bar go from 100% to ~50% in seconds, especially if it is a class that is capable of doing it and getting out. True, you can't spam that attack, but it is a viable offensive.

I said it was easy enough to avoid warriors because really, that's the class assassins need to get the hell away from. I will put rangers in a close second, if the ranger is smart and takes throw dirt or a defensive stance. Mesmers are usually anti-caster (remember, I said usually), Elems have various purposes but can become very vulnerable within melee range (unless they are earth). If it is an earth elem, the best bet you have is trying to daze him if you have the skill or just finding something easier to kill. Necros are the nuisance you want rid of because of their nasty degens. Rits...well, I am not sure about those yet but they can be classified along with the rest of the casters for the most part. Rits look to have enough tricks and escapes though the spec is vauge at the moment. Monks, eck, unless you are doing 2v1 on a monk, the monk will out heal your dmg as in most games; however, attacking the monk head on causes confusion amongst the enemies and breaks ranks. Warriors....have too much armor, too mank skills to evade/block/mitigate/add armor, and are just a plain pain for the assassin. Hope the warrior doesn't cripple the assassin, blind him, teleport or run off to greener pastures.

Assassins != Warriors. They are 2 completly different play styles even if they are both melee oriented. A warrior can brainlessly charge in and know that most dmg will be mitigated by his armor, or his supporters. An assassin can sneak in and hope he isn't found out before he caps his target. If you have the playstyle of running in and beating on things, warriors are your deal. If you have the playstyle of being in constant flux, and looking for the easy target, assassins are your deal. It also comes down to the mindset of the individual. If you are hellbent on not liking the assassin or w/e else you don't like about them, you are not going to like playing that class and think that the class sucks. I won't get deep into my opinions of what kind of person I think plays a class, but I will say warriors are easily replaceable. You can try and say the same thing about the assassin, but that would be a lie. It is obvious that the assassin is one of the more difficult classes of GW, and takes more thought and preparation when going into battle.

Ah, and if you think assassins can't deal enough dmg because their armor is so low, then why don't we just "lower" the dmg that warriors cause and "fix" their skills.